Resource Center

Show Notes

• VOICEOVER:
  DEI didn't appear out of nowhere. It's because students had the guts to break the rules, to organize, you know, sit-ins, et cetera, to demand fair access. But what's happening now is not only that those products of their organizing are being erased, but also the ability to organize is being shut down.
  And you know, when that dissent is criminalized and that access to education is, you know, it becomes a condition, then that's not right. That takes away the whole purpose of fair access to education.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  Welcome to the IDRA Classnotes Podcast. I'm Adiba Chowdhury, and I'm an Education Law Intern at IDRA. Today, we're continuing our Education and Law series, where we highlight our nation's landmark education cases and explore current issues.
  Today's episode takes a deep dive into a critical question. What happens to college access and student success when diversity, equity, and inclusion policies are rolled back? We'll explore that question with our guest, Dr. Chloe Latham Sikes, IDRA's Deputy Director of Policy and Co-lead of a new IDRA Impact Study, examining what these shifts mean for Texas students, families, and educators.
  We're also publishing an issue brief on this subject by yours truly, which you'll soon be able to find on our website, IDRA.org. Also with us is Alex de JESÚS, a member of the Texas Students for DEI coalition. In their own words, Texas Students for DEI is a collective of students, alumni, educators, and community members from across the state working to preserve and advance DEI in education and beyond.
  Together, they continue to push back against policies that seek to divide, diminish, or silence people. Thank you so much for being with us, both of you. Alex, would you mind telling us a little bit more about the coalition and how you joined?

• ALEXANDER DE JESÚS:
  Sure. Texas Students for DEI as a coalition is a coalition that deals with a lot of different areas involving DEI. And by that, we don't mean just simply, for example, diversity, equity, and inclusion services on college campuses, but also the intersection it has on college campuses with impacts for students.
  For example, in a recent legislative session, we've been dealing with things involving the Texas Dream Act and undocumented and DACA students who are currently having the effects of that act being rescinded. We've also dealt with, for example, diversity, equity, and inclusion in K through 12 because K through 12 is the pipeline leading up to college. If you don't have access to services leading up to that, how can you be prepared for higher education in a better manner?
  And so as a coalition, we deal with those different aspects, ranging from the issue of how students of all different backgrounds be able to have access to college campuses to as well the implications of being on college campuses, such as, for example, the free speech bill that just passed that diminishes equal opportunity for speech for different students. And so as a coalition, we deal with those different areas because we believe that DEI doesn't just simply stop at services. It starts as well with the students having the ability to practice them.
  I first joined during the 88th session, the coalition. This was freshly being made because at the time in the 88th legislature, we had Senate Bill 17, which was the original anti diversity, equity, and inclusion law that was being proposed into the, at the time, the Texas Senate. And that would have basically removed all the diversity, equity and inclusion services. And the original version was a lot worse.
  It also included variations of changing accreditation, including variations on removing access for coursework in different areas like that. And so what we were seeing was the beginning of an aggressive push against diversity, equity, and inclusion. And at the time, we didn't see a lot of people focusing on that in a legislature because so many bad things were occurring in a legislature that students were basically feeling frustrated about not only not being heard, but also not being seen.
  And so I joined that coalition around that time when basically we were forming up. And the idea was, how do we start fighting back against this bill? Can we kill it? Can we try diminishing it? If it passes, how can we reduce the damage? And so for the last several years, that's been my journey. It's been from fighting against these bills to also fighting against them as they're being implemented on different college campuses, because those two are different fights.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  Thank you so much for that explainer. We're going to get more into SB17 for sure. But just to start us off, we're going to take a step back and get a little bit more into the basics of what you've described, because there are so many aspects to these diversity, equity, and inclusion policies. So Chloe, can you tell us a little bit more about what we mean when we talk about those policies in education?

• CHLOE LATHAM SIKES, Ph.D.:
  Sure. Thanks, Adiba. So let's start off by breaking down what diversity, equity, and inclusion each mean.
  There's a lot of scholarship and a lot of educational and actual social science work examining these practices and how they benefit students and entire campus communities. So diversity, this is how people are different, especially in the context of education and diversity, equity, and inclusion policies, how they're different based on their identities of their racial background, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, their ability status or disabilities, their immigration status or national origin, their socioeconomic class, a lot of different types of variables, but how these are aspects of their identity and how they differ.
  That's diversity, just by itself. Then we have equity. The equity is really a mutual goal of ensuring people have opportunities, and in this context, especially in education, that are not contingent upon those particular identities. But that doesn't mean those identities shouldn't be recognized. It means, in fact, they need to be acknowledged and considered and brought into how the policies are shaped and those practices are informed in education to make sure students, faculty, or staff, anyone in that educational environment, have the appropriate supports to ensure that opportunity.
  And then we have inclusion. So these are the policies, practices, activities and even attitudes in an educational environment that are required to ensure everyone can be part of an educational experience for their own success. So together, diversity, equity, and inclusion practices really shape a different type of framework as it's often been characterized for supporting, in this case, students, but also the campus community for better engagement, better student outcomes and better faculty and research practices.
  And diversity, equity, and inclusion practices and policies really arose following the 20th-century civil rights movement. So in part, they were arising as a way of ensuring institutional compliance with new civil rights laws and anti-discrimination protections. But we know we always have to go beyond just compliance. That's the bare minimum. So as these types of policies evolved, particularly in higher education, they were also focused on developing good best practices that are supportive, that are proactive.
  I think, as Alex spoke to, that ensures students are able to engage in those environments and thrive.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  And can you tell us a little bit more about the evidence behind that success?

• CHLOE LATHAM SIKES, Ph.D.:
  Yeah, as I mentioned, there has been, because we have over 50 years of evidence of what diversity, equity, and inclusion practices have looked like and how they've evolved. We have a lot of legal knowledge of how they've supported students from discrimination, or being able to have remedies against discrimination if they experience that and accessing education or other opportunities.
  We know in the business sector that diversity, equity, and inclusion policies lead to more innovation, creativity, profitability and business success. And we know in education that they do lead to stronger student outcomes, in particular in graduation rates from college, retaining those students through graduation, in higher job placement rates, in skills like critical thinking, creativity, team building, and collaboration.
  These are all really important for not only individual student success, but a more collective type of social and economic success.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  Thank you for that. And you know now that we've grounded ourselves in what these policies are and why they matter, let's turn to what changed. So I know Alex referenced this a little earlier, but just to give it more of a background, in June 2023, the Supreme Court issued a landmark decision in the case known that I'm going to refer to as SFFA for future reference.
  But here it stands for Students for Fair Admissions versus Harvard and another case versus UNC. Both of these were conjoined, often shortened to SFA, as I mentioned, but the ruling struck down the use of race as a factor in college admissions, so effectively ending affirmative action as we've known it for decades. The court's majority argued that race-conscious admissions policies violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, but that ruling didn't come in isolation.
  As Alex mentioned, around the same time, Texas lawmakers passed SB17, which is a sweeping law that goes even further. As we know, it bans diversity, equity, and inclusion, but the language of the law is much broader and I would say vague than that. We'll get into some of the details, but that includes some of the concrete takeaways we have: no staff, no mandatory diversity training, and no race or gender-conscious hiring practices, except in cases required by federal law.
  That attack on equity initiatives continued in 2024 when the legislature passed SB12, which extends diversity, equity, and inclusion bans to K-12 schools. Earlier this year, the legislature also passed SB 37, which strips university faculty of key decision-making rights, including control over their own curriculum.
  At the federal level, President Trump also signed executive orders that threatened to fund diversity, equity and inclusion-related grants and contracts. Governor Greg Abbott followed that with an executive order here in Texas, declaring that all state agencies must eliminate what he called racist DEI policies. Now, as we've been discussing, diversity, equity, and inclusion mean a lot more than what I think these bills have tried to translate to their constituents.
  So I want to get a little bit of insight into what those changes look like, especially for students on the ground. Alex, can you tell us what your experience was, both as a student leader and as a student yourself? What have you seen lost or threatened because of these changes? I know. Broad question, I know.

• ALEXANDER DE JESÚS:
  Oh, it can be a broad question. If I had an hour to talk about what I've seen in different campuses across the state, I could take up that hour talking about it.
  But a rundown, if I were to give a rundown about it, it's at different levels of the universities and we've seen different responses. And the primary reason for this was that, statewide, we saw that there wasn't a uniform code necessarily because of how vague SB17 was. It was left at the discretion of different universities to implement the law. And this always came with a background caveat of there's always the threat that if they felt it wasn't being implemented, they would threaten to defund your schools.
  So for a lot of universities, they were keen on wanting to follow the law, but they didn't know exactly the depth they had to go to. And so, because of that, we saw different universities, different levels of implementation. In some cases, excessive over-compliance, especially with sections that were explicitly exempt in the law, was removed because they felt it was DEI. UT also, for example, abolished what they called the Monarch Center, which was basically a center dedicated to immigrant and undocumented students and DACA students, so that they could resolve either legal status issues or be able to be accommodated within the university.
  That wasn't DEI, or at least according to the law, but the university got rid of it because they were very much afraid of it being seen as DEI. Even though later down the line, Senator Creighton, the original person who wrote this bill, explicitly said, I was not aiming for students to be included under this. So we saw, for example, at UT Austin, that implementation level. And at the University of Houston, for example, we saw as students how they decided to just preemptively comply and nuke their centers well in advance.
  In August, while the semester was just getting started, they closed all of their centers. The law wasn't supposed to be implemented until January of the year following this legislative decision, instead of September, but they chose to decide to comply with this well in advance. And we saw that have wide-reaching ramifications where, for example, queer student organizations that were dependent on funding or dependent on institutional support and were anticipating at least one more semester of activities were just cut off.
  They didn't have any backup plans. They didn't hear anything from the university about what to do. And so because of that, they were left out in the cold, not knowing what to do. They would either have to rely on outside help or on local community assistance. For example, Rice University provided some services to students who were needing that danger because they were a private university at the time. So we solved those different levels of implementation. At my campus, for example, UTD, I would characterize it as probably the most lenient implementation, where they still got rid of the centers.
  They did try making successor organizations, but these successor organizations were then later abolished because Senator Creighton a year down the line, basically sent out a letter threatening that if he thought that there were places that were just renaming centers, he would push for defunding them. There's always this dynamic of universities being on the defensive, always afraid of their funding sources. And so they're willing to overcomply even if it costs them. So we saw those different things occur.
  How did it look at UTD, for example? Centers were removed. The training was removed. The short-term ones, student organizations that used to depend on these centers, had to basically go back to what other organizations dealt with, which was this bureaucratic process for getting funds, reserving rooms. And because these bureaucratic centers were not expecting so many organizations to be transferred to them, it slowed things down even more.
  Student organizations as a whole went into a crawl on getting funding, being prepared, and also these universities, as a result, started becoming much more aggressive on implementation issues. And this had spillover effects. So as a student, I saw, for example, how at UTD, when there was a student protest, we would see a harsher disciplining of those protesters, regardless if it was a legal or not legal protest. We saw different issues.
  And for reference, UTD is the University of Texas at Dallas. But at the university, we saw these different implementations ranging from more lenient, but still having a silencing chilling effect, to outright censoring, getting rid of centers, and cutting students off out of fear of basically losing everything. And you can see these different effects being reported sporadically throughout the entire time. And then this caused a huge crisis because different places had different implementations, and students had to rush all over trying to deal with them.
  So those were some of the things I saw as a student leader at the time, and just having to deal with that.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  Thank you for that picture, Alex. For me, as a graduate student myself, I think it's important to flesh out the idea that disparities in education start long before we get admitted into college and grad school programs, right?
  And it starts long before the impacts that we're seeing today, that system of unequal opportunity, as IDRA research has shown and as my own research has shown for this issue brief, emerges long before students start trying to get in the door for college.
  So just to give us a little bit more of that picture, in my own research, as I mentioned, I came across data from the Texas Education Agency, which shows that only 38.2% of our black graduates enrolled in higher education for the subsequent fall, and 48.7% of our Hispanic graduates met college readiness standards in 2022.
  So that's based on Texas Success Initiative Benchmarks, which looks into mathematics, reading, English and Language Arts. Another example, important for college admissions, is AP and IB participation, right? So those college credit scores can give you a boost on your college applications. So participation might be reflective of your ability to access college.
  To preface here, I'm going to ask Chloe a little bit more about this, but IDRA's Impact Study, among others, invited counselors to participate in these roundtables and ask them more about what they've seen in their own student conversations. And to add to what Alex has described, something one college advisor described as beginning to see is adjusting academic and post-secondary goals a little bit.
  So, something we start struggling with when our seniors start applying for school is undermatching. I see a lot of our students shifting towards not just options that don't necessarily challenge them, but also options that are a lot cheaper to try to put their parents' worries at ease, especially in mixed-status families.
  Another one of our college advisors mentioned that we work with a lot of first-generation students or students of color. And when they go off to college, one of the things they want in a university is a university that would support them with either organizations or resources to help them either identify or find comfort or a safe space when it comes to certain aspects of their life. With this band, it definitely does make it a little harder, or it narrows down some of those selections for our students.
  So, as a reference to these quotes are from an ongoing study that IDRA has on the impact of Texas Senate Bill 17's ban on college diversity, equity and inclusion, as well as the SFFA decision to limit race-conscious admissions. Chloe, can you tell us what IDRA has learned from the study to date?

• CHLOE LATHAM SIKES, Ph.D.:
  So as you mentioned, we have ongoing focus groups. We've completed 10 focus groups. That's following 11 roundtables, like a broader group of folks in conversation from last fall. And what you just shared were a couple of quotes from college advisors who work in Texas with high school students going to college, seeking to go to college. And that's been our focus, how that college access pipeline is impacted by the changes in higher education spaces for high school students, because we know it is a pipeline, we know it's connected.
  So some of the things we've seen so far, and we cited these in our preliminary report, and they've been echoed and elaborated on in our focus groups, are the sense of safety, physical, mental and psychological safety that students want to make sure they have on their college campuses when they get there. But in the absence of diversity, equity, and inclusion policies and offices, they're not sure they'll be able to get.
  We heard from parents that they're very concerned about their child's ability to access mental health services that are culturally relevant, that are appropriate for their identity, and that would acknowledge what their particular student is going through in their transition to college and college life.
  So this sense of physical, mental and emotional safety is a major concern that's come up for students, parents, educators and advisors.
  Related to that, people have really hit upon the theme of belonging in community and the purpose of diversity, equity, and inclusion policies to create a sense of belonging and embedded practices that include people, create supports for them to succeed and acknowledge their differences, right? These are all the aspects of those policies. Alex spoke to, you know, the dissolution of various student clubs, organizations, and centers for support for students.
  Those are major concerns we've heard. High school students, advisors and parents say they're worried about how their student can actually academically succeed in college if they don't feel they even belong. And I think that's reflected in some of the college advisors' quotes about that match. Students may feel, "Maybe I don't belong at that university, so I'm just going to go over here.” This feels a little safer for an option that might not be either as academically challenging or have the same types of social opportunities as a different college or university that they're choosing.
  That's the mismatch or undermatch theme that they were sharing. And then related to that, the academic and social supports. Students seek out faculty who look like them and engage them. Just as we know in decades of research about good teaching, teaching that engages students as relevant to them and their identity can really encourage how they do in the classroom.
  And students are worried about how they can find academic opportunities and help, like even just tutoring, study skills, writing skills, particularly for students who might be the first in their family to go to college and are anxious about that transition and all that it includes.
  So those are some major themes that have come up that are going to be informing the next phase of the study to develop some resources and tools to address those concerns.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  Thank you for that description. To add to what I was referencing earlier in terms of how disparities begin early, IDRA's research in 2023 found that most eighth-grade counselors in regions serving predominantly students of color reported lacking sufficient time to provide the counseling that Chloe just mentioned.
  So, with limited access to career day activities, information about scholarships can influence admissions and degree completion. And though we know that, given the pandemic, a good number of colleges no longer require test scores, test scores still play that selective role that we see in admissions and scholarship decisions.
  And those disparities can carry over to adulthood, right? So in 2019, 39.4% of white Texans age 25 and older had earned a bachelor's degree or higher compared to just 25.7% of Black Texans and 16.1% of Hispanic Texans.
  I want to emphasize that these differences don't reflect differences in student potential. I don't think any of us would say that changes in college access are reflective of any one student's intelligence. But it's the impact of these systemic barriers that Dr. Sikes and Alex have been describing for us that influences access to academic opportunities, guidance, and support.
  Now, Samiha, thank you for joining us. Samiha is also a member of Texas Students for DEI. And just to add to Alex's description, I asked Alex earlier if he could tell us a little bit more about his experience as a student leader on the ground. Would you mind adding your own thoughts to that conversation?

• SAMEEHA RIZVI:
  Yeah, hi everyone. When I first got involved in Texas students through DEI, SB17 was being debated on. It hadn't been voted on yet in the Texas legislature. So, you know, a group of students and I had come together to advocate against its passage. Unfortunately, right, it passed.
  A lot of our experiences and our work focusing on responding to the crisis at hand basically shifted into trying to make sure that, you know, students were aware of what was about to happen in the implementation of this law.
  And that included, you know, doing teach-ins, educational materials, like just sharing the information out there so as many people knew this was about to happen, so folks could prepare in time, whether it be like trying to preserve the resources or support systems that they had created or been a part of that would have been impacted or were impacted by SB17.
  And then, you know, once SB17 was placed into effect, for a lot of people, including me, that focus then became on how do we make sure we're so used to offering resources and support to students, but now we're at a place where we can't do that. So how do we then focus on protecting those resources in a way and still provide support to students?
  That was, I think, especially because, you know, historically, these resources have been provided by staff members for a very long time. So for that responsibility to shift onto students who, you know, are trying to navigate, many of them trying to navigate college for the first time, trying to navigate university without this kind of support. It was a lot. I will say that.
  And it isn't meant to be a responsibility put on students, which is why we had staff who were so gracious and loving in helping us in every way and every step throughout the process. So this, I think, for a lot of students, was just a lot more than expected. And it felt like, you know, we weren't getting support from the university at all, especially from the university administration.
  So it really was students looking out for other students, faculty members looking out for students, all of us looking out for each other, but not the people who are in charge of the university. They really did not do much. So, it was a big responsibility.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  This question goes to both of you. So whoever wants to answer first, feel free. You guys mentioned that a lot of other students had expressed that difficulty and the stress that came with these changes. Can you tell me a little bit more about the concerns that you heard from campus stakeholders, like students, families, and educators?

• ALEXANDER DE JESÚS:
  It's been a lot, right? It's a lot when you hear from different students, like their fears and their concerns as well, from educators. For example, I remember the fall right after Senate Bill 17 had passed.
  I was having a class with a professor. It was about political rhetoric. And as soon as the class was done, that professor came over to me. And she was basically saying, "Hey, I don't feel comfortable talking about topics that are DEI because I'm afraid that I could get reported."
  And this was even though several people had tried to emphasize to different professors. It's like, "Hey, there is an explicit exemption for teaching about topics that are seen as diversity, equity, and inclusion." But because of how vague that is, a lot of professors are assuming, oh, if it sounds like anything critical of administrations, it might be considered as DEI.
  So I remember like just the first few weeks of classes, there was a shift of tone a lot in professors because a lot of professors were very much concerned about, am I going to get in trouble? And do I have to self-censor myself? Is my research about to be in trouble?
  So a lot of professors I saw were having that similar concern. And other professors were saying, I know what I'm seeing on the writing on the wall. I need to prepare to get out of this state if things get worse.
  Some professors, even back then, were already expecting they're not going to stop at that. They're going to go on either attacking my tenure, my coursework or my research work. Lo and behold, Senate Bill 37 happened.
  But back then, a lot of professors were very concerned about that. And some were very much preparing exit plans.
  Other students definitely had lots of concerns because they didn't hear fully what happened with Senate Bill 17. They only heard the beginning version of Senate Bill 17, or they heard later on about what was going on in other universities, and they were very much afraid of it being copied at UT Dallas.
  For example, I remember hearing a lot of students in Hispanic and Latin organizations who were very much scared of, hey, is my coursework about Latin history about to become invalidated? Or do I have to be concerned about my organization not having enough funds for Hispanic Heritage Month?
  And for a lot of queer student organizations, they were very much afraid, is the university going to just ignore us if, for example, someone harasses us on campus because of who we are.
  And so we had those different types of concerns. And other students were basically scared of, hey, if this is how the university is going to be treating us now, what are they going to do if there's a major protest?
  So we saw different free speech issues happening across campuses. Universities were hesitant in how they responded. For example, UT Dallas removed some public forum spaces for student expression at very questionable times.
  So for a lot of organizations, there was this ongoing fear of what comes next.

• SAMEEHA RIZVI:
  Yeah, I can add something short to that because I feel like Alex hit the nail on the head, and he was very comprehensive in providing really detailed examples of the reality. And you know he went to UTD. I went to UT Austin and very similar experiences, I can say, in that you know a lot of the resources that we relied on, we saw a shutdown immediately, even though we were told before SB17 went into effect that either nothing would happen or that you know things would just be changed around, but the resource would still be there.
  And one example is a multicultural engagement center. That is like the oldest, one of the oldest, I would say, examples of DEI on UT Austin. Essentially, it's a space that was created by and for students of color, even for students of all identities and backgrounds. No one is prevented from using that space. But being honest, it was created by black and brown students because at the time that you know they created this, which was back in the '80s and the '90s, there was no support systems at all for black and brown students. And they were a growing population at UT. So they created the center, right? Student activist for the purpose of making sure that all students were supported.
  And we were told once again by admin that this would be fine. You know the center would still be there, blah, blah, blah. But then come January 1st, it was gone. Everything was gone. And while the physical space was there, like the whole etching of like, we have a sign on top of the building or on top of the center, completely gone. And now from what I've heard, because I'm an alum now, right? And now I've heard that the center has been completely, like all the materials, you know, they were still there back when I was at UT. And a year from then, so like this past year, all the materials were taken out. So even like the books, everything's just completely empty. Don't know what's going to happen.
  But I think the reality is, right, on the ground, we've seen both material and material losses that deeply impact students, faculty, and staff, like Alex brought up, you know, the sense of safety, the ability to speak freely about our identities, and the confidence, you know, the confidence that we thought that our institutions cared about us, it's completely gone.
  And, you know, people are censoring themselves, whether it be on various topics from race, gender immigration to Palestine, because the crackdown on DEI does come hand-in-hand in freedom of expression. And the moment they got rid of DEI, we saw like this snowball and everything else happening very immediately, very quickly. Because, you know, the reality is DEI didn't appear out of nowhere. It's because students had the guts to break the rules, to organize, you know, sit-ins, et cetera, to demand that fair access. But what's happening now is not only are those products of their organizing being erased, but also the ability to organize is being shut down, like Alex said very eloquently.
  And, you know, when that dissent is criminalized and that access education, you know, it becomes a condition, a conditional privilege, actually, then that's not right. That takes away the whole purpose of fair access to education.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  So Mihai, I think you grounded us beautifully in some of what Chloe was describing about how important it is to remember the origins of what DEI is and what diversity, equity, and inclusion, that full acronym really means. I think giving us that picture of how students' work has continued to be so valuable and impactful on moving us forward is really key in this moment.
  So with that, I want to take us toward our conclusion, and I have two questions for that for all of you. And I can start with Chloe, and then we can go in reverse order. So Chloe, Samiha, Alex. First, what gives you hope in this moment? And second, what would you want listeners to remember from today's podcast?

• CHLOE LATHAM SIKES, Ph.D.:
  Honestly, I can't say it better than I think what Sami had just shared as well. It gives me hope to think of the excellent work that students have done and are continuing to do on their campuses to fight for their own educational opportunities. And so what I would want any listeners and particularly current or aspiring college students and educators supporting them along that journey, to remember is to have the guts to say something isn't right, something isn't good, something is taking you backwards, and that the mission of education is to promote those educational opportunities for all students to succeed. And for them to succeed, that can require diversity, equity, and inclusion types of policies and practices. They're good practices, they're based on research, they're based on evidence, they're based in the law, and they're hard fought, and they were hard won, and they deserve to be protected.

• I think that's a beautiful answer, Chloe. And I absolutely agree. These are things that deserve to be protected for a very fundamental reason. And it's because, right, it's not just for the students of today, it's for the students of tomorrow, and also the students that came before us. It's a matter of making sure our education is accessible to all people. That's what DEI is, right? It's not meant to exclude any group, rather, to make sure that every group has a seat at the table.
  And unfortunately, we've seen how that term has been manipulated into something that it isn't. But also, even taking parts of that term, because people of color are getting access, some people don't like that. And that is right. It's racism. And that is very disheartening to see because we thought we were in an era where people would understand and be able to coexist, but I guess not.
  But I think with that, what does give me hope is just seeing people like you all, so not even just students, but you know, even like faculty, staff, community members coming together, showing up for each other, even when it feels like everything is being taken away from us. You know I've seen people organize events or activities, and you know knowing that it might get shut down, but they still do it because they know it's still important to at least put their mark out there, put their foot out there.
  And you know I've also felt that fear like everyone probably is feeling about being watched, of doing the wrong thing, of getting in trouble. And you know when I was at UT, because now, right, I'm an alum, but I was at UT when SB17 was going into effect. And I did get in trouble at some point too. And I think you know in my experience, what really kept me grounded was just having, once again, my community behind me and knowing that I was doing the right thing.
  So you are doing the right thing. And I think the people that I've met through this work have also just reminded me that you know, it's going to be exhausting, but this is a long-term movement. It's not a moment, so we have to keep on fighting. And it doesn't start here. It doesn't end here. You know we continue going on.
  So I think that's like the purpose that keeps me going on. And I think something I want listeners to remember, and actually, this is to my alum, because it's not just students and educators that are involved in this fight. It's once again, alumni, we need you. I'm an alum, right? I'm getting involved. I'm working with a close friend of mine to restart one of our alumni networks at UT Austin.
  So I would really encourage you all as alum to get involved in your alumni networks because those networks can provide money and funding to student groups and create scholarships and different initiatives that you know while obviously they have to be in compliance with SB17, but can still make sure that we are once again supporting all students.
  I think my message to alumni is that get involved in this fight because this is one that is too big for us to sit out on because many of us are beneficiaries of resources that students of today will not have, and that is an incredible disservice. So what do we do to make sure that we're giving back?
  Because that's the whole purpose of being part of higher education is to make sure we are giving back to those who come after us. Since you know it's not meant to be like a revolving door where we just leave once we're done, it's meant to be, you know, somewhere where we can come back and ground our roots and make sure that everyone can benefit from it because we had that privilege and we got those opportunities that many of us, including our parents, couldn't get. So you know it only makes sense to make sure that those who come after us get that opportunity.

• ALEXANDER DE JESÚS:
  Yeah, that's really nicely set behind Chloe. I suppose what gives me hope it's more so seeing how people are reacting in the moment. Because the thing is, a lot of times it's very easy for people to feel as though the scope of what other oppositions and adversaries are doing is overwhelming. It just, every time you hear more about the scope of what's going on, it feels like it's an ever-growing, never-ending challenge, right?
  And what sometimes gives hope a good amount for me hope is seeing how students are always trying to find creative solutions to deal with the situation before them, and they don't try giving up. For example, as we saw, different student governments across the state step up because different movements held them accountable to it. And, as well, different movements tried proposing this idea.
  But we saw student governments, for example, take on those DEI services themselves, where they willingly sacrifice their own budgets so that DEI services could continue. We saw, for example, Black History Month events being hosted by them, where they were able to basically recreate those experiences that were eliminated, having hundreds of people in their event, and getting those people back together.
  We saw how different groups have stood together, queer organizations working together with local area-based organizations to continue hosting events, to continue making those safe spaces, and provide services for different students.
  And we see how a lot of that energy has been coalescing where different networks have been forming of students trying to help each other. Instead of just letting it lie, they're trying to keep it going. It's not as good as it once was, but they're still trying. And they're trying to figure out a way to not only sustain that, but grow it.
  And so that gives me a bit of hope because there are entire groups out there that are unknowingly part of pushing back on this. People are pushing back through these different actions. And the more people become conscious of it, the more people can organize about it. So I guess that's what gives a lot of hope.

• ADIBA CHOWDHURY:
  Wow. Well, to all of you, thank you for your words. To Alex and Samiha, I have loved hearing about your good trouble today. To Chloe, I cannot wait to see what your research says and does and helps us with.
  And to all of our listeners, I would encourage you, if you are interested in learning more and seeing more of your questions answered about SB17, check out IDRA's website and their social media. There's an infographic that you can share with your fellow peers, community, and educators so that we can take away some of the confusion that SB17 and fear that SB17 has caused. And to echo our guests' wonderful points, stay fighting, and thank you for listening to today's episode.
  Thank you for listening to IDRA Classnotes. For more information on IDRA and other Classnotes topics, go to www.idra.org. You can also send us your thoughts by email to podcast at IDRA.org.